How to Lead When Not in Charge with Pastor Justin Reinking

**Title:** "How to Lead When You're Not in Charge"

**Description:**
In today's insightful episode, we delve into the critical theme of leading effectively without holding a formal leadership title. Joined by Pastor Justin Rankine, we explore practical strategies for exerting influence and making impactful contributions within local churches, districts, and beyond. Pastor Rankine shares his journey from youth pastor to various prominent roles within the church hierarchy, offering valuable lessons on leadership that transcend formal positions.

**Key Insights:**
1. **Lead Through Presence:** Emphasizing the importance of being actively involved and present at church events, even when not in a formal leadership role. This engagement demonstrates commitment and can lead to opportunities for greater responsibility.
2. **Self-Motivation Over Self-Promotion:** Encouraging young ministers to participate in church activities not for personal gain but out of a desire to contribute to the church’s success.
3. **The Power of Local Church Impact:** Highlighting that the most significant influence often happens within the local church setting. Engaging deeply at this level supports the church's vision and fosters substantial community impact.
4. **Building Relationships Through Service:** Discussing how serving in various capacities allows for personal growth and spiritual maturity, often leading to witnessing miraculous happenings within the ministry.
5. **The Value of Diverse Fellowship:** Stressing the importance of cultivating relationships with peers from different backgrounds and experiences to broaden perspectives and enhance one’s ministerial approach.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of leadership within religious organizations, offering powerful strategies for impactful leadership from any position within the church hierarchy.

Transcript

 
Today, we're talking about how to lead when you're not in charge. We have Pastor Justin Rankine with us today. The main idea is going to be talking about local church section or district and beyond, how you don't have to position or a high role.  And he's going to take the lead. He's given me some points we're going to talk about. 
 
 I'm going to chip in, but I'm glad to have my friend with us today. He has, he served for 11 years as youth pastor in Oklahoma. And then he got recognized and he was elected to sectional youth director in Oklahoma, and then he got recognized, became the Oklahoma district youth secretary, and then he moved up to Oklahoma district youth president. 
 
 If that wasn't enough, he made it all the way up to director of promotions for the whole United Pentecostal church and a national youth division. And then it was the general youth secretary.  And then he decided that was too much fun, and he came down to Whitehall and has been pastoring there at Cornerstone Apostolic for three years. 
 
 Man, what a resume..  
 
 If you don't mind for this podcast, let's stay on first name basis, okay? I consider you a friend. I want you to call me Mike. Do you mind if I call you Justin?  
 
 That's absolutely fine. Yes, 
 
 sir. All right. Well, I'm gonna let you take the lead. 
 
 What's your first point, sir?  
 
 Well, Mike, I am thankful for the opportunity. I'm thankful for your burden that you have for training young ministers. I've listened to several of your podcast episodes, including the first one where you shared your burden. And kind of that process. And I encourage anybody that's listening to podcasts. 
 
 If you've never gone back and listened to episode one, where Mike conveys why he's doing this, I think it's really important. And there's just been some really great episodes. And so when you reached out to me, Mike, about what you'd want me to speak about today, or just start thinking and praying something that came to me is I heard a podcast one time. 
 
 Promoting a book by a man named Clay Scroggins. Now I've not read the book, but just the little thought he had this idea called how to lead when you're not in charge, something along those lines. In fact, I think it's the title of his book and basically what he was talking about was how you can have leadership, even if you aren't in the role of leadership. 
 
 And I know you just mentioned several opportunities that the Lord did afford myself and my wife and my family just because of where we were and what was going on in our life. And those were some of the greatest chapters in our life was that youth ministry season. I was 15 years old when God specifically called me at a youth camp. 
 
 I was working and it was the younger camp. you know, one of those deals where they let people who are just barely older than the campers go and work and pop machine or mop the floor. And so I was there, God called me at 15 to youth ministry. And so I got to do that from, from the very early age that ever my youth pastor allowed me to help and to do those things all the way up until escorting to the UPCI when you get too old and you can't hold a position anymore. 
 
 And that's then what brought me to Cornerstone. So what I want to talk about today is some things I learned along the way about how to have leadership things, even when you aren't in that leadership position. And so one thing that I noticed along, along the journey, and I'm not saying I'm perfect at this or did the best at this, but just things I noticed something about, there's something about being engaged. 
 
 And within your local church, obviously that's, that should always be number one for the young minister or the aspiring minister, and then involvement in your section, which of course, then your section, the way it's set up in the UPCI, then is a part of a district. And then of course, that's a part of the North American, or sometimes we just use the word national not to, uh, leave out our Canadian brethren, but you know, that's, sometimes we call it North American, but here's, here's the thing. 
 
 I think is that. What we can do is when you're thinking about engaging within your section, don't think of it. I think sometimes people might be hesitant. A young minister there, they're a little worried, like, well, I don't want it to look like self promotion by me wanting to be engaged. So I would like to call it self motivation. 
 
 
 
 And sometimes a young minister can get a little nervous maybe about a youth rally or going to, you know, some other section meeting and they might feel like this feels like self promotion by me coming even when I'm not asked to preach or sing or do anything on the platform. Why would I even go? Well, you, we should go because that is being self motivated that I'm willing to lead myself. 
 
 Because I want to contribute and I want to see things to be successful. And so I can be there to lend a hand however and whenever we can. So we need to lead ourselves before we can help to lead others. Right. That's good.  I just, I just watched through the years in Oklahoma as I had the privilege to be at different section meetings and district meetings. 
 
 People who were just present, people who were showing they had a burden. People who were in the altar, people who were in the foyer, fellowshipping, people who got there. There are people, they're the people who got invited to go out to eat afterwards, and we became friends. They're the people who, when we needed somebody to help pass something out, those are the people. 
 
 That's how you get to rub shoulders with. With preachers and pastors and people who have way more experience than you by just being there You know, we can't we can't feel sorry for ourself and think well Nobody knows who I am or you know I haven't had all the privileges of this person or I don't come from that, you know from that church I don't come under that person's ministry. 
 
 So, you know, i'm just going to stay at home and feel sorry for myself. We can't do that No matter what our personality is, we should go because we're a part of the family of God at large. And so I just kind of feel a burden about that because I know how much it blessed me to go. Even before all those things that you listed, those roles, we were at just about everything we could get ourselves to, whether it was youth related or not. 
 
 We wanted to go because I knew I'm going to get to rub shoulders with the pastors in our area. I'm going to get to be able to rub shoulders with those speakers and just learn, learn things and have discussions. So  have you noticed anything along those lines too, or just, 
 
 you're absolutely right. I actually have a story to share, but before I share my story, I wanted to piggyback on that. 
 
 As a youth leader, my nightmare job was coordinating events.  Because let's say I, we averaged 10 to 12 students at any given time or, you know, and that was on a busy year for us, we were,  sometimes it was five, sometimes it was one, sometimes it was 15 or 17, but let's just say 10,  but those 10 students were so diverse. 
 
 One of them liked hunting. The other nine hated honey.  One of them like this, the other nine hated that. It was so hard. They wanted, they're like brother Yates schedule events. What you all hate  the things that everyone else hates. So whenever I would schedule something,  only one person, you know, it, no one else liked it. 
 
 And I served a section youth youth leader, and we would try to do something. We would try to schedule this event and people would, would nitpick. Well, that's not my cup of tea.  And so I liked your would be present, man, that that's such a blessing to those that are in charge.  Because it's stressful trying to put something on and nobody show up. 
 
 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So show up and we remember it. I promise you, I can tell you the ones that showed up to the first section to Christmas banquet. You know, it's grown now, but it was small the first time. You know, there's the lessons learned, the foods they don't like. I can tell you some hard lessons, but I just really wanted to stress that point that be, be there, show up. 
 
 Yeah. Yeah.  Yeah. And, 
 
 and I think part of the engagement too, about being present and being there is that if, if somebody, you know, if a young minister is there and they're like, you know, I've got an idea, or, you know, what if, you know, you have an idea for the food, you have an idea for the game, I think if you're there and you're present and people see you're there, even when you haven't been asked to do something, and then you go up to that sectional director and say, Hey, Have you ever heard of this game? 
 
 Or have you ever heard, have you ever thought of doing this kind of food? You know, usually when you say that, most good leaders are going to say, Hey, why don't you help us do that next year? So the young minister needs to remember if you're going to suggest something like that, you might as well just go ahead and get ready. 
 
 Cause you're somehow probably going to chip in. But as long as you're doing it from a heart of like you want the entire event to win, you're not just trying to promote yourself. I think that goes back to the whole self motivation versus self promotion is that we're trying to set each other up for wins not said just ourself, you know, not just that our idea. 
 
 Because it's not about that. It's about the whole, you know, how it can bless everybody. I've seen that. I've seen that go both ways. You know, I've seen that where someone, it was just them trying to push themselves. And then I saw somebody who, you know, others who were like, I just want the event to be successful or, you know, the function, whatever it is. 
 
 So 
 
 absolutely.  And if you are looking to be used, you know,  They, they cannot learn your name if you're not there. The story I wanted to share. It's an old story that all the older pastors in our section know, but I go by the nickname, the other usher  when brother Paul, he pastors in star city. He's my brother in law. 
 
 When he and I were first getting started in youth ministry, neither one of us had a license, neither one of us had preached out much, if at all.  And our pastor had sent us to the sectional conference on his behalf. He couldn't make it, but he wanted us to go.  So we show up again. We're not voting ministers. 
 
 Learn that you can go to a conference without a vote, be a  part of your section. Be involved. Don't don't get upset. Well, I don't got to vote. So it was none of my  go and support your section  anyway. So we showed up  and brother Hadden called on us to be the ushers. And it just so happened that the. Section two youth president was aging out. 
 
 They looked us up and down and they asked, as they had the ballots in their hands and we're holding the offer in place, they asked David, I, what's your name? And he said, David Polk. And they all started writing.  And I was like, okay, they're going to ask my name next. They never did.  David Poe was the election. 
 
 We have an election. The president, youth section two youth at, at that time, it was called president, you know, or youth leader. I think it was still, it wasn't president yet. It was youth leader. Anyway,  he said, David Pope, and then now secretary,  I'll let you in a little secret. Our youth secretary at the time was not aging out. 
 
 They just thought he was, and he let his name. He rolled that out.  I'm watching Jane. I know what you did anyway.  They did not ask me,  they just started writing.  The chairman got up there. We have an election.  Your new section two youth secretary is the other usher.  They literally roll on the ballot, the other usher. 
 
 And that's how I got started  as section two youth secretary. And I was. In and out between secretary  and youth leader for the next 12 years, but it started out because I showed up.  Got a license without a vote without a say.  My pastor said, go support your section. And I did.  
 
 You're a living, you're a living testimony then to that point about just being present and supportive. 
 
 Absolutely.  
 
 Yes, sir.  What's your 
 
 next point, my friend? Well, I would say goes right along with that being present and supportive as much as absolutely possible. You know, I know. Our schedules, sometimes they don't, they don't allow, you know, we're unable to be there based on, you know, we might have some things planned before the section or district comes out with the calendar before we hear about it or something changes, but we have to be willing to be involved. 
 
 I think I've kind of already made this point, but just kind of hammer it home a little bit more. We have to be willing to be involved even when we aren't in charge or holding a microphone. And I think that shows you were sitting there at that meeting because you were interested, because you were listening to the advice of your pastor. 
 
 And then you ended up being called on to be an usher. I can, I can look back to so many different times where just, just someone being present. I remember as a sectional guy that maybe a guest speaker was coming for a rally and he needed a prop last minute. Well, I just turned around and looked into the young guys who look like they were aspiring to ministry. 
 
 I asked one of them, I said, here's my keys or, Hey, you got your car. We need such and such for the prop for, for the sermon. He wants to have this illustration running, go get this. Or. You know, just anything like that. And it starts there, right? It starts at things that, well, why didn't they hand me the mic and ask me to do this? 
 
 Well, that, that might not always be, that might not always be what's going to happen. I do, I do have a funny story about something that happened once. I was, well, I grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana, and I had the privilege while I was going to Calvary and attending Indiana Bible college, I had the privilege to be like a summer intern. 
 
 I think it was spring and summer where I could work off my school bill, you know, because the Calvary Tabernacle and Indiana Bible College, they're connected. So we did some internship work for Brother Mooney, me and me and some of my friends. And at the time, Brother Mooney was the Indiana District Superintendent. 
 
 And so, He, we were in charge, he was in charge of the camp meeting and my friends, we had just done some work at the campgrounds and there was a microphone issue where the speaker, while he was speaking, it wasn't making a good connection. And somebody had to take a brand new microphone from the sound booth, way at the back, all the way to the front and go on the platform. 
 
 Well, my friends, they weren't, they weren't really dressed up for church. They were, they were just in a button up shirt. Well, I had worn a suit and tie that night because my friend, one of my friends who I worked with, he always told me, he said, Justin, I always wear a suit and tie at events like this. And at church, just in case brother Mooney needs me to do something or go across the platform. 
 
 Well, he didn't listen to his own advice that day. And I was wearing the suit and tie. So I had to be the guy to walk all the way in front of the entire tabernacle there in Indiana. Take that microphone. And then I got up on the side and I waited.  And of course, you know, the preacher, he's just going to town. 
 
 How do you walk up to a Pentecostal preacher while he's throw down, can't meet and preaching and say, Like, let me switch the mics. How do you do that?  Especially when I'm like 19 years old and I don't even know what I'm doing. And so I, I walk, I walk up and I sit off to the side and I'm like, nervous, I'm sweating bullets and I'm like, okay, what do I do? 
 
 What do I do? And I'm like, you just got to go for it. Or if you don't, it's not going to happen. And so I just walk up, like I belong there. And as the preacher was holding the mic out, I literally just reached up and grabbed the mic from him. And while I did, I held the other one right in front of his face so he could see it. 
 
 And he just let go of that one and grabbed that one. And I didn't know what else to do. I just turned around and I sat down right in the seat that was right there. And I was sitting like right in between Brother Mooney and whoever else on the district board. And I looked back and my friends in the sound booth are just dying laughing. 
 
 So sometimes being present can get you in some really funny situations, but. It's kind of a cool memory, you know, but anyways, that's kind of a little bit off track, but just, just a funny memory there of just, you know, being around and, you know, I, it was just carrying the mic back and forth. I don't even remember who the preacher was at the moment, but it was, it's just something to laugh about now. 
 
 Man, you 
 
 should have waved your hanky, patted him on the back.  
 
 They might have called, they might have called camp safety security on me or something. So I think, I think it too, I don't know if you want to go to the next point or switch gears here, but I know that you, you mentioned your story about being at a sectional meeting. 
 
 I think part of being engaged within the district in the section is being willing to serve if called upon. I mean, you said yes, even though they didn't know your name, they called you the other usher and You found out as well as I have that the key word to serving is serve is actually spelled W O R K, right? 
 
 It's, it's working. It's, it's doing things it's planning events. And you talked about some of those frustrations of trying to, you know, make everybody happy, but people are from different parts of. You know, they're they're from different backgrounds. And so how do you get something to please everybody? We probably don't get something to please everybody. 
 
 We just try and do our best. And I think the important thing to for somebody listening today would be that we got to remember that if we're in, if we're in it to try to get something out of it, just on a personal basis, like you. Finance or bonuses or benefits or like what can this position give me? 
 
 That's really the wrong reason we're in it for the wrong reason But but the truth of the matter is is when we do say yes We will get personal benefits and we will get things out of it, but it's usually on a spiritual level It's usually on a character shaping level It's usually some cool memory with your presbyter or a fellow pastor or a fellow minister that you're like Wow, that's way more valuable than any kind of Honorarium or mileage check or free meal at some rally. 
 
 This is, this is way better than going to, you know, some special meeting that I get asked to go to just because of my role that I'm in. Um, and serving really can put you in a unique place to watch God do miraculous things.  
 
 Absolutely. Um, before we move on to the next point, I want to take a shot  at the older minister who may be watching. 
 
 Cause I know I'm going to take my liberty. It's my podcast. I do what I want.  I'm going to talk to some pastors  practice what you preach set a good example. A young minister that's listening to this. This is such an important topic that even your pastor may have a problem with this.  Because if you notice that youth rallies, a lot of pastors are absent. 
 
 A lot of pastors don't feel the need to come to youth rallies no more.  And I'm not, I don't know why that is I guess because we're tired.  I'll be honest with you. The very first youth rally that I was not. Sexual youth leader. I felt that temptation. I did. I was like, well, I don't need to be there.  But then I remembered,  no, I, I need to support my, my, my youth leader. 
 
 I need to let them know I've got his back.  And now that's, that is why I don't have any teenagers in my youth group, except for my son. And most of them,  you know, Daniel's in Monticello and Elijah, he, he may be doing something else now. He's got school events typically now on Friday.  I go, so brother Dustin Corbett. 
 
 And George Sanders know that I support them. That is why I go  so I can look them in the eye and say, I believe in you. You're doing a good job  and I've got your back  because if I'm not there, how can I tell them that? And they believe me.  It's just rhetoric.  So I've got, I've got to be able to put my money where my mouth is and pastors got to do better. 
 
 Now I am, I'll go ahead and tell y'all he may be, Justin may be keeping it a secret, but it's hard to make some of the sexual events with my job. But I want you to know I do every year that sectional minister, Christmas banquet, it clashes with a concert that  my middle child puts on a big concert.  This year I missed the banquet because I went to his concert. 
 
 You know why? Because last year I missed a concert to go to the banquet.  So  you know, there's balance you got to take care of. I told him next year, this is the banquet, it's the banquet time.  And he got mad. No, you need to go to my concert. I don't  know.  I don't get it.  Other obligations, you know, it's just, there's balance, but pastors, you need to do a better job of setting an example and supporting your section. 
 
 The younger ministers need to know that  even though you're not in charge of the rally  show up  and it means a lot.  
 
 Yes, I do. I do remember as a sectional leader, trying to honor the pastors that would, that would be there. And remembering what a benefit it was, because that's also another team of people to help pray with kids in the altar, you know, that's, that's, and, and, you know, Mike, you and I know that sometimes, and this isn't to let anybody off the hook, but, you know, pastors were there, they could be at a hospital visitation, they could be at some wedding rehearsal that comes up that, you know, conflicts that that's the only time, you know, there's, there's things that happen, but when we can, You know, we should do our very best. 
 
 I would say, you know, as a fellow pastor as well, my wife and I try to do our very best to make sure we're there because we remember what it was like when we were in those positions and looking out and seeing people who are seasoned and who, um, are supportive. And, and plus I just, I just enjoy, I just enjoy watching young people and their gifts being used. 
 
 And so it is, it's just an exciting thing. 
 
 I did have one more, I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm so sorry. I just wanted to get you out there before we moved to the next point. Cause.  It'd be awkward to come back to it. In the, in the vein of being willing to serve,  I like to come back and have  a balance. 
 
 There's a, there is a balance between being picky and when to say no.  You know, you may get asked to do something you don't want to do in tough noogies. You know, there's a time to shut up and do what you're asked. And there's a time to say no.  I tell my staff,  don't be afraid to tell me no.  But they also respect me enough and I've had to tell them yes. 
 
 Over there.  Okay, I need you to do this or I'll but I'll explain myself. You know, there's been times I've asked one of them to  preach on a preach in one of the ministers said I'm not comfortable preaching because of XYZ.  And I tell him, I think you need to because of XYZ,  and he did it. But, so I just wanted to stress to the young person that when you get asked to do something you may not want to. 
 
 And you don't have to say yes every time it's okay to say no. But make sure you're not being picky and say, well, I wanted to be a youth leader. I didn't want to be a kitchen organizer. I will, you know, so don't be picky. Yes, sir.  It's okay to say, I'm, I'm an introvert and I really can't handle this job or, you know, I get stressed out with, with numbers. 
 
 So please don't put me in charge of  the tickets. If you're selling something, you know,  It's stress. So it's okay to have your boundaries.  Just don't be picky. I just wanted to put that practical limitation there.  
 
 Yeah, I think that's, I think that's very good. My, my wife always says when we've been training, training young people or young adults is that if, if you're. 
 
 Youth leader, whether it's section church or your pastor, if they, if they try or trying to delegate something to you or asking you to do something, usually it's because that person, that elder in your life, they see something in you and they think that there's a, there's a something to be for you to discover within yourself. 
 
 And so  I think that's kind of what you're after too there, Mike, is it you, you as a pastor have seen things in people. And so you're, we're trying to constantly kind of challenge young people. And sometimes people can think, oh, they're just trying to give me a job to keep me busy or just so I won't feel bad for myself. 
 
 It's, it's not that it's usually like, we want to kind of give you a test run at it because One of our instructors at IBC, his name is Jim Sleva, he would always say, Exposure breeds a burden. The more you get exposed to something in some ministry, something in your life, some gift that begins to stir in your heart, the more you have a burden for that. 
 
 And, And, and I, I do like your point too, that if you know, you're not a money or a numbers person, then if secretary for the position comes up, you may do everybody actually, you know, a favor by saying, I'm not sure that's my gifting, you know, but still being able to serve somewhere else. I think even a podcast episode of you and your, your bishop, I think is what you call. 
 
 I think you guys talked about that a little bit about making sure that you're in the right. In the right fit, and I really enjoyed that one too. So, there's a lot to be said. I've seen people who said no just because it seemed like they just didn't want to do anything. You know, and I was like, uh, you know, kind of hurts a little bit. 
 
 And you're like, but then I've also watched people who,  you know, knew that it wasn't in their gifting and that it would actually harm more than it would to do, than it would do good by just saying yes. That's 
 
 exactly it. Thank you. Yeah.  All right. Now I'm now I feel good moving on to the next.  
 
 You got it. 
 
 You got it. One thing I I kind of alluded to it a little bit, I think, at the beginning, talking about, you know, just just being around and being engaged in the things that it. That it can opportunity, not just for holding a microphone, but, but the cool things that you can, you can get to experience as a young minister. 
 
 I have this little thought that I came across one time in the, in the book of John chapter two, and it's in that miracle at the wedding of the cane of Cana of Galilee, when Jesus turns water into wine, his first, you know, public miracle in his ministry, where he's at the wedding feast, they've run out of wine. 
 
 And his mother says, You know, they, they need help. And he says, it's not my time yet. And eventually she goes to the servants. He says, whatever he tells you to do. You need to do it. And so finally in verse seven, Jesus tells them, he says, fill the water pots with water and they filled them up to the brim. 
 
 Then he said unto them, draw out now and bear unto the governor of the feast. And of course they bear it. They took, they took it to him. And then the ruler of the feast, when he tasted the water that was made wine, and he didn't know where it was from. And in your King James Bible, there's parentheses there, and it says, but the servants, which drew the water knew. 
 
 Right and the governor of the feast called the bridegroom. So here's what's interesting to me Here's here's the thing that I felt like I I saw in the scripture that the lord kind of just showed me and that's this Now we know that those servants, you know, they're they're paid workers, but we often call ourself Servants and that we're they're doing the work. 
 
 Jesus told them this is what I want you to do And because they did what he said and because they were right there Pouring the water in, they saw, they knew before the governor of the feast, that what he was about to drink was not going to be water, but they had seen Jesus perform the miracle. He didn't know how, why in the world this wine is better at the end than it was at the beginning. 
 
 But in the, but in the King James, it says, but the servants which drew the water knew. And so I have a little thought that I often share called what the servants know. To me, what the servants know is that it's.  It's Jesus who does all the miraculous things. All the opportunities we've had to go missions trips, see kids do Bible clubs, see Bible quizzing, all the great things, youth congresses, youth conventions, camp seasons. 
 
 No matter who was the youth president or youth secretary, no matter who was on the youth committee or not, or who was the superintendent of the district, I always know that when people are working and serving, if it's happening for Jesus and for his kingdom, There's going to be miraculous things that happen, and I've got the opportunity to watch some pretty awesome, miraculous things just because I was willing to do the hard work of setting up tables and chairs, count the money, lead the prayer service, lead the whatever, just be there, be the chaperone. 
 
 And so as a young minister, if you want to see the miraculous, just get to work, because when you're working in the kingdom, you're going to look around and you're going to be watching miracles happen.  Wow, 
 
 that's good.  That's awesome.  
 
 So just, just some awesome opportunities that it wasn't that I think sometimes people if we're not careful, we can chase, we can feel like we're chasing the big opportunity, or if I can just get to this church if I can just get to that district if I can just get to this thing, then that's when all the glitz and the glamour and the flashy stuff happens. 
 
 But I watched so many lives change just at our local church and then in our section and, you know, don't chase, don't chase the miraculous, but chase the miracle worker, you know, chase being near him. It's that it goes back to the whole Mary and Martha concept, right? Being near him was what was important. 
 
 And so I think that's just an important point when we're talking about being engaged, that it's not just about. You know, my microphones and things like that. I watched so many cool things happen on just different trips and different experiences where had nothing to do necessarily with me, but just because we were willing to do hard work, then we got to see God do his work. 
 
 And it was just so cool to watch that.  
 
 Bible says these signs shall, shall follow them that believe.  Yes, sir. Let's say them to believe shall follow the signs. So you're, you're, they don't seek the miracle.  
 
 Yes, sir.  Absolutely. Well, I think, I think another thing to  maybe maybe move into a different, a different point here. 
 
 And that is,  you know, when we're kind of referenced, you know, seeking after this event or that thing. And, and that is this that the, I think that the local church. Is the most powerful impact that can happen in our lives and in our community. And what I mean by that is while we're talking about section and district and national, that each of those things have their place, the district and the national, they're all in service to the local church, the local church needs to be the healthiest it can be and thrive the best. 
 
 So as a young minister. If we're thriving and giving more of our energy and more of our effort waiting on a section or a district or a national thing to open up and we're not giving 100 percent to our local church, then we're really missing out because the best, the biggest impact that we can make is not sitting at some national seat like I got to sit there that has its role. 
 
 Right. I got to help different people and, and, and even in a district role, help a district, you know, and help sectional leaders, but really where it really got down to, you know, one on one small group families seeing change was right there at the, at the local church. Some of our greatest, greatest memories would be right there when we were youth pastoring for those 11 years. 
 
 So for a sectional guy, don't think, well, I'm going to hold on to some energy or I'm going to, we're, we're going to give just enough to our local church, but we're going to still save some back for, for some later years. Don't, don't do that. Go all in for your local church, all in supporting the vision of the pastor. 
 
 I think that's incredibly, incredibly important loyalty to that home church, first of 
 
 all.  That is absolutely right.  I feel guilty. I'm about to take this down to a practical. Again, secular almost, but that was, that's good, deep stuff. You're absolutely right. I just wanted to explain to,  I know I've got some listeners that are not in an organization and you don't have to be,  I made no apologies, you know, in the first lesson, the first lesson I said, I am licensed and I want to talk to you as if you are. 
 
 But not everyone knows what a section is and what a district is or what a national is, so I just want to take a moment and explain that now, I feel like I'm cheapening what you just said,  you did a good job. So for those that are listening, that may not know, you know, my friend and I, we are licensed in the United Pentecostal Church International. 
 
 So we're both in the,  we both live in the city of white hall. I currently pastor in a different city, but  let's say for right now, we both, we are both in the city of white hall.  So,  but also has what? 130  churches.  
 
 I think it's 140 ish. I think a hundred.  
 
 Yes. I remember when it was one 17, I remember that number. 
 
 Uh,  so we got to organize that, you know, the organization just, it helps us organize. It helps us say focus. It's a good vehicle to organize our efforts so that we can minister to the kingdom more effectively and efficiently. You do not have to be in an organization, but it sure helps the flow.  So they break it down into a section. 
 
 Our section has. I think we're down 11 churches. Now, it changes from 12 to 10 to 11 depends on the mood of certain pastors. We're at 11 right now.  And it depends on, we try to keep it close regionalized and then that breaks not not every state is its own district. Texas has like. The districts by itself,  some of the smaller states, they combine to make 1 big district by themselves, you know. 
 
 And that's what a district is. So I just wanted to explain that, but what you may not know for those that are UPCs, you may not understand that every section is different  just because you, you grew up UPC your whole life. But if you never got out and about, you may not understand  just what is United Pentecostal church. 
 
 I promise you not every district is the same. Some districts have, I'm not going to go to the differences, but there, there are differences because we're human,  different human leaderships, different Different cultures, you know, different.  I mean, we all have the same doctrine, so I'm not talking about differences in that. 
 
 I'm just talking about differences in the way they are managed and the way they do things.  I've been blessed. I say blessed, some people may say cursed and a sinner, but I'm, I'm a part of an online forum  of other UPC ministers, but it lets me see the UPC from a different Perspective  and I was not aware of just how different it was until then. 
 
 And now I travel because of my job. So I've been to  14 different districts in the last 12 months,  but I just wanted my listeners to know each section is different. Each district is different.  Do not judge  and think you understand everything. If you've never gotten out.  Everyone is different.  
 
 Yeah, that's a that's that's definitely a good point. 
 
 Here's here's the beauty of it to me. Um, is that section as you greatly explained it is a collection of local churches. And so what I've experienced to and seen is that within, you know, many of them are states, of course, you explained it well to that the larger states like Texas have several smaller geographical states, some of them combined be but but that that collection of a section is it can be. 
 
 It can be whatever that region, you know, so I remember in Oklahoma, there were a couple of sections that were more in the metro, the metropolitan areas of Oklahoma City, and Tulsa, and so those churches, and those people who are from a more urban area. As opposed to the rural area where our church was, that section, the pastors, their personalities were different. 
 
 The personalities of those churches. Now, obviously, we still all believe in all the same doctrine, as you well illustrated. But I think that's why it's important to recognize and remember that being faithful in a local church first, And then understanding how the section is to help us all gather together, because I watched so many times as someone that maybe if, if they're in a more rural area, and their churches tend to be smaller in attendance  that when we can all gather together and there's 100 of us maybe at a youth rally, or 150, Wow. 
 
 The energy level that brings that might not be at a local church where there's 20, 30, 40 people on a Sunday and the energy level that, and the focus of prayer and, and, and all the musicians together and the preacher that sometimes often many of the kids would receive the Holy ghost or young adults there that may be at a local church. 
 
 You know, there's so many, there's only like one person that's praying for people in the altar, and they might be the same person that's supposed to be playing the piano or the same person that's here. And, but when you get to a section, there's a whole team of people that can be helping. And then if you take it and magnify that to an entire district, there might be several hundred people to maybe even a thousand or thousands, depending on where you're from. 
 
 And so that means They can, you know, so I guess it's important to that as a young minister to see all of those different areas and to expect or think that we can bring, you know, like, I remember going to a district or a national thing thinking, man, if I could just bottle this up and take this to my Wednesday night youth service where there's 15 of us, how can I bottle this up? 
 
 And I'm like, I finally came to the realization like, I can pray just as hard and I can preach just as good or I can just do, you know, do all these things, but there's, but I can never pack a hundred people in, you know, or hundreds of people like that. So I'm going to do the best to be the local youth pastor and speak real to them and love on these kids, me and my wife, and have relationships with them. 
 
 Because there's something that this. Youth room can do that. The youth camp cannot do because there's too many kids and their youth convention hall is too big that it doesn't seem as personal sometimes. So let's take the youth convention and the holiday or the North American Youth Congress and let it let's let it do its thing, which is to show everybody. 
 
 Look, here's the big picture. You know, here's this awesome thing that the district or the national level can put together for us. And so kind of see where those roles are and don't get discouraged. Like we can't say, well, our church could never be as big as that district thing or sexual thing. So we just, you know, we just don't go to that because that's not who we are. 
 
 No, go, go knowing, you know what, this is something we're a part of together. You know, just, just, this is, so I think that's important. I've seen sometimes of our perspective in it, right. We can, we can, you know, Look at it the wrong way. I learned that going, you know, going through a few lessons, frustrating myself and beat my head against the wall, trying to duplicate something that I saw somewhere else. 
 
 I'm like, okay, I can't quite duplicate that because of those, you know, just those real realistic things. Like you said, so  
 
 very good point. Let the, let the local church be the local church and let the big, the bigger events be the bigger events.  Outstanding.  What's your last point, my friend?  Well, 
 
 I think, uh, I feel like maybe I've alluded to it already, but some of the, just the benefits. 
 
 of fellowship. And as you've illustrated, you know, you and I are, of course, a part of what we call, you know, the fellowship of the UPCI. And I know there are other absolute groups, I think, whatever, however you gather yourself or whoever you fellowship with, to understand that for me, anyways, speaking from my story, Many of my greatest friends that I have to this day that are in text groups, forums, you know, conversations that they're almost like standing lunch and dinner invitations. 
 
 When we go to conferences and conventions, wherever we are, whether it's general conference for the UPCI, that there's almost like a standing invite that we know we're going to go out to eat at least once. We are often on the phone together, but some of those came from interactions that were within. The section or the district that because we were there, I met somebody who, because I didn't grow up in Oklahoma, I didn't know some of them or even people that I met in other seasons of life. 
 
 And even while living here in Arkansas, my wife and I have had some friends who have just really connected with us and, you know, just, you know, opportunity to learn from one another. And it's just, it's just awesome to think that that's a, that's a beauty of having other brethren, you know, in, in the, in the truth that we can share like experiences. 
 
 We can laugh about things. We can cry about things. We can pray for one another about things.  And so if I were to speak to the young minister, I would say, Find good friends in the fellowship and stay connected. Don't always wait on them, but be, be willing to be the person that you send the first text. And, and if you think someone, if someone comes to your mind, don't hesitate to text them and say, you've been on my mind. 
 
 You don't know how many times over the last few months I was facing a pretty difficult decision, or I was facing something where I knew I was supposed to preach something, but I was feeling resistance. And somebody would text me on a Sunday morning and say, bro, you came to my mind, you just get up there and preach it. 
 
 And that all that, that just gave me the boldness that I needed. Or on a Sunday night or a Sunday afternoon, friends texted me, bro, I don't know what I'm going to preach tonight. You know, pray for me right now. Or, you know, I'm just really tired. And I know I got to get behind that podium. You guys have a little nugget of truth. 
 
 You can just share with me because I've just given everything and I need some help. I mean, that's, that's what we need to be there for one another. And I'm just so, so, so thankful that I pushed beyond my quiet, quiet, shy self to make some connections and to, to try to be more of a people person than maybe my, than my original makeup was as a child, you know, so thankful that God is growing that in me. 
 
 No, that's, that's 
 
 wonderful. And I was thinking of some guys that are near and dear to my heart, but I can't name them because I can't name all of them and if I don't, the person I  don't name will be the one that listens to this and  
 
 yeah,  yes, 
 
 sir. I guess we're going to play good cop, bad cop. So you gave, you gave the good side of the benefits of the fellowship. 
 
 I'm not going to give the bad side. There's no such bad side of the benefits of fellowship, but I wanted to  think outside the box. I want to encourage the young listener or young minister.  You need to find someone outside of your thinking circle, someone that didn't grow. And I'm not saying nitpick,  but find the benefit in someone that is different than you. 
 
 You know, Jared Turner, I don't know if he listened to ours yet. He, he grew up in you both. Cause you're both the same Calvary.  It's a whole nother world  from what I,  the fact that y'all could have went weeks without talking to brother Mooney blows my mind.  Okay.  Yeah. I need that.  I need that reminder of another perspective. 
 
 You man, you I've invited you will not, you will not let me buy you dinner here in Whitehall. You've come to Little Rock a couple of times, but  I need more interaction with you because.  Of your connection to the organization. You have a deeper connection to the organization. I am more loyal to the person and not the organization. 
 
 With NASA, that's not a slander, you know, I'm just wired differently. And I enjoyed  visiting with you so I could get a different  perspective. And I told you that I need you to call me out. If I say something wild or off the wall.  And that's what I want my young minister to do. I want them to hear someone that thinks opposite of them. 
 
 Don't be afraid to think of, to hang out with someone that disagrees.  Because you need that balance. You're not always right. And  iron sharpens iron. And  man, I just, we don't need echo halls. We need people to challenge us.  Yes, 
 
 sir.  I agree. I agree with that. And I could name off some friends right now. That, that are, that are that in my life, that, that can make me laugh and call me and can talk about the dumbest things that just make me like, just laugh and get me in a good mood and joke about things that. 
 
 You know, I wouldn't think I would joke about, not, not, not filthy. I don't want to, I don't want to sound, but just, just, just goofy stuff that if, if, if I don't, I have to stop and not take myself so serious sometimes. And, and those kinds of people and people who see things from a different perspective. I am 
 
 one of those people  that'll joke about things. 
 
 You don't normally joke about.  
 
 I know what you're saying, brother. I 
 
 didn't mean to cut you off. I just realized he's talking about me.  
 
 You would be in that list right now. Yes, but not from Oklahoma. But then when I moved here, I was like, okay, Mike's going to be my local guy now.  
 
 I didn't mean to cut you off, but I do want to say with caution. 
 
 Don't find a bad influence. I'm not talking about one that's going to pull you, uh, charismatic. Someone that's going to pull you,  you know, down. I'm not talking about those,  you know, because, you know, find good people that will challenge you in the right way. Yeah, go. Yeah.  Oh,  
 
 yeah, most, most of the time it can be like if, if you consider yourself an introvert, the other person might be more of an extrovert, but you might consider yourself more cautious, you know, and they might be an adventurer like I have a friend who he goes like he wants to go rattlesnake on all the time. 
 
 And I'm like, I would probably never go do that. But, He has made me think about things in such a different way, and he did not grow up, he did not grow up Pentecostal, came to the Lord during his teen and young adult years, had a way different upbringing than me, but God is using him and their church's experience in Revival, and, and just the way he just has a go get it attitude kind of, kind of rattles my cage a little bit, if I could say it that way, and I'm like, Okay. 
 
 I need to, I need to think that way. I need to have those hard questions asked to me, you know, and you know, I was always teased a lot about being the company man, you know, about just being like the yes man, the company man. And sometimes maybe, you know, maybe that would hurt my feelings, but I'm like, you know what? 
 
 You know, I, I guess, I guess that loyalty is a good thing, but I also need to be willing to, you know, listen to other perspectives as well. 
 
 So, so I'm not the only one that sees it. Okay.  All right,  man. This is, I've had fun. Yes, sir. Again, you need to let me buy your food again. Okay. Hanging out with you.  You got anything that we can promote? 
 
 Anything going on at Cornerstone? Easter's coming up.  So  anyone in Whitehall that doesn't have a home church can zip on down to  Cornerstone. 
 
 Yes, sir. And I don't know when this, I don't know when this episode is going to release, but I do know that I, I think our church is privileged to host the section youth rally and kids rallies the Friday on Good Friday, the weekend of Easter. 
 
 I think it's March 29th. It's at Cornerstone for our section two here in Arkansas. 
 
 I'll try to get this out before then. I'll do that. I'll try to get this out before then.  Well, that'd be cutting it close. It may be that Friday.  It may be that Friday.  Well, my friend, I appreciate you.